One clear sign of how ignorant and immature the college protesters are is how they all don't seem to want to be held accountable for the crimes they committed.
I wish that our U.S. campuses would at least still assign students to read MLK's Letter from a Birmingham jail, and Thoreau's essay on Civil Disobedience.
I think these protesters have failed the guidelines of: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self-purification; and effective direct action.
This entry was edited (1 week ago)
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •Footnotes:
https://letterfromjail.com/
https://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/Thoreau/Civil%20Disobedience.pdf
CliffNotes:
https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/t/thoreau-emerson-and-transcendentalism/thoreaus-civil-disobedience/summary-and-analysis
Letter from Birmingham Jail, by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
letterfromjail.comClara Listensprechen likes this.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •#WarInPalestine
#PierceMorgan gets eviscerated by Prof. #MuhammadMirandi from #Teheran, previously a top-notch adviser to #Iran's nuclear negotiations team.
Everyone should try to take a 1930's perspective and mentally substitute #Israel by the #ThirdReich or #Mussolini's #Italy and Iran by an opposing Allied Power like the UK or the US.
After listening to this debate, the West's, including Israel's, position doesn't have that much standing anymore.
https://youtu.be/bknbDY1wXCU
Piers Morgan gets destroyed by this Professor! Drop mic big time!
YouTubeKevin Leecaster
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •I haven't been convinced based on the evidence that I've seen that I can agree with the argument that the Iranian professor starts out asserting as fact so I'm not going to watch the other 25 minutes.
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •#WarInPalestine
A contrarian perspective
(1/2)
Too bad.
In this case, I find the whole counter argument very insightful.
Israel is, indeed, an apartheid state and the war crimes committed by it, e.g. the direct hit on the help convoy, etc., would have disqualified any other country from the West's help but Israel.
The moral yardstick is, even by well-meaning minds, so obviously different when it comes to Israel as to give representatives from authoritarian...
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Kevin Leecaster
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •I wish that our geopolitical landscape provided the room for us to act like these complex situations were black & white, but I know that they're not because of the history that has brought us to this moment.
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •#WarInPalestine
(1/2)
Correct.
But are they ever?
I don't think so.
The only thing we can do is to act based on the high moral principles that were the basis for many Western democracies and the founding principles of the League of Nations and the United Nations from NOW on.
Nations or terrorists organizations that defy these principles must me brought to heel, however.
This applies to #Russia, the terrorist #Houthis in #Yemen, the remaining #Hamas killers, and...
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#WarInPalestine
(2/n)
...also the perpetrators of #WarCrimes in the #Netanyahu Regime and the #IDF.
There cannot be double legal and moral standards, ..."with liberty and Justice for all.”
As a sidenote:
History will judge whether the current presiden of Russia or Israel or the former president of the US, #TFG, will have caused the most lasting damage to their respective countries in the long run.
What is at stake for the USA is nothing less than Democracy and individual...
Kevin Leecaster
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •Well, since the Soviet Union's protege, Putin, is responsible for both Trump and Netanyahu taking power I think that Putin can have the worst criminal award.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#WarInPalestine
(3/3)
...liberties, the final collapse and partitioning of the Russian Federation, and statehood and a safe heaven for Jews for Israel, as well as a Superpower guarantor of its security . I'd say with regard to discrimination and persecution Jews have already been set back globally since October, 2023.
Probably the most lasting achievement of #Netanyahu.
//
Kevin Leecaster
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@HistoPol
@claralistensprechen3rd So, I would suggest reading about our Civil War to help understand my perspective. Without campaigns of total war that would make the Rafah invasion look like arresting campus protesters like Sherman's march to Savannah I don't know that we would have ended slavery in the 19th century. Hopefully, it would have ended by now, but I don't know that.
These discussions are complex and best done offline with whiskey though.
Kevin Leecaster
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •@HistoPol @claralistensprechen3rd
It's a lot easier to tell soldiers what to do than to do it oneself.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •I'm indeed missing your point, even after a 3rd reading.
Yes, sometimes some "fireplace talk" would be illuminating.
@claralistensprechen3rd
Kevin Leecaster
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@HistoPol @claralistensprechen3rd
Perhaps a cause-and-effect analysis of John Brown's terrorism might be better example when discussing whether the ends can never justify the means.
These are deep issues that I'm not well prepared to "debate" in 300 word missives perhaps. For example, this short thread was started entirely about the effectiveness of the campus protests imo and it's turned into a debate on middle eastern policy with histories of two other wars muddying the original thesis.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#WarInPalestine
A contrarian perspective
(2/n)
...states a real semblance of justified grievance. This must STOP.
President Biden was right to halt the delivery of offensive weapons to #Israel.
This can be but a first step.
#Netanyahu has for decades been a grand master of letting US presidents look like school boys when informing them, often after the fact, of aggressive actions against its neighbors or #Palestinians. This must STOP. If Israel wants to be an equal nation,...
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#WarInPalestine
A contrarian perspective
(3/4)
...special treatment needs to STOP, too, in particular when it comes to international law. The ICJ case must move forward.
Also, discriminating against part of the native population on the basis of race, ethnicity, or creed within its borders IS #apartheid clearly in violation of all (Western) democratic principles that are incompatible with a modern democracy.
Of course, the professor also makes biased argumentative mistakes,...
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Kevin Leecaster
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •There are quite a few things about Israel that I'm not fond of especially their long history of playing the U.S. off of the Soviet Union for their own purposes, but since I've never had to live in a neighborhood like that I'm not qualified to judge them.
Plus, since I know that right now America's and democracy's adversaries are on the side of Hamas, I'm on team Israel since there are big, globally big, issues at stake now.
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •I'm neither for against Israel.
However, the end never justifies the means. Over 30k civilian deaths are too many.
I did not live during the Vietnam War, but the currently globally spreading student protests clearly show that the #Netanyahu Regime has clearly abjectly lost the propaganda war for the minds and hearts of the global public.
Every day doesn't only cost innocent civilian lives in Gaza and Israel, but the remainder of any moral "Holocaust credit" that the Regime...
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •...deems to be limitless. It is not. It is approaching bankruptcy with every day that the war drags on.
That Hamas has agreed to the terms of a #ceasefire only accelerates its exhaustion.
#Netanyahu seems to have forgotten that this year is a super-election year globally. Governments around the globe will not be able to ignore the students' demands, rightful or not.
French novelist Émile Souvestre wrote in 1848: “There is something more powerful than strength,..
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •(3/3)
...than courage, than genius itself: it is the idea whose time has come.”
The implicit idea that the suffering of the Holocaust justifies any deed of self-defense is obsolete.
The tides of (the decades old) propaganda) war have shifted. Every day counts.
#Netanyahu must be removed ASAP.
...//
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#WarInPalestine
A contrarian perspective
(4/5)
...however, this does not discredit all of his arguments.
The #Palestinians or their forbears did not commit the #Holocaust atrocities. This was done by the #fascist and communist regimes of Europe. They should have equal right like the Jews.
As long as this great injustice has not been remedied, war-mongers like the #Mullah Regime and the #Netanyahu Regime will always have ample possibilities to rekindle the embers. Al of...
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#WarInPalestine
A contrarian perspective
(5/5)
...the #MiddleEast is but one gigantic powder keg. And several fuses have been lit...
//
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Clara Listensprechen
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • •Don't leave out AIPAC, which has dominated both American political parties. AIPAC courts the GOP but let's not forget that a former Dem party chair was Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, foursquare in support of the Zionist project.
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Kevin Leecaster
in reply to Clara Listensprechen • • •@claralistensprechen3rd @HistoPol
That's what I mean by not B & W.
Ideals are great except when sticking to them too fastidiously cause the "good" guys to lose the overall war.
For example in this situation, if we abandon Israel that could result in making that region into a new Iranian radical Islamist caliphate with strong ties to Moscow. I don't believe that avoids the most human nor environmental suffering so I oppose that course of action for greater good even if I don't like doing it.
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Clara Listensprechen
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • •I agree with you in principle, @Kevin Leecaster , but much more extensive study of the situation is warranted because you said this:
...which leaves out the Abraham Accords with Sunni Arab nations that don't like Shiite Iran either. Should Abraham Accord member states successfully evict Iran's Islamists, they could very well install their own favorite Wahab-flavored Islamists which range from the Taliban to ISIS. And it's the Wahab Sunni nations that ARE US allies.
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Kevin Leecaster
in reply to Clara Listensprechen • • •@claralistensprechen3rd @HistoPol
Yeah, I'm well aware of the competition between them plus Erdogan has the desire to form a bigger caliphate as well it seems to me.
Yes, they'll compete, but with Iran's close ties to Putin could provide them with ability to win in battle for Israeli territory. Regardless who wins in their contest though, my hope that there would remain a somewhat democratic bastion in the Middle East might be lost for more than a generation.
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Clara Listensprechen • • •@claralistensprechen3rd
You raise a crucial point, Clara. According to a recent extensive @TheEconomist podcast, the Sunni leaders are not really interested in a stable situation in #Israel, as that would endanger their own position. They need the #Palestinians as a destabilizing force.
This reminds me of l British foreign policy from the 16th-19rh century pioneered by Henry VIII, when the UK would switch...
https://ehne.fr/en/encyclopedia/themes/europe-europeans-and-world/organizing-international-system/european-balance-power
@GreenFire
European Balance of Power
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@claralistensprechen3rd @TheEconomist
(2/2)
...alliances with Continental European powers so that one would not become predominant. (As Emperor Napoleon's French did until Waterloo and the Congress of Vienna.)
//
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Linda
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •Clara Listensprechen
in reply to Linda • •HistoPol (#HP) likes this.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Clara Listensprechen • • •#UK #England #History
(1/5)
Thanks, Clara, correct.
What did I mean by "UK" in this context:
I meant...
a) solely the Kingdom of England (but including Wales since 1284 ;)) until 1536,
b) the Kingdom of England and Wales until 1707,
c) The Kingdom of Great Britain until 1801 and, finally, as I was talking about the period before WWI, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (until 1922).
So,...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_of_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland
@TheEconomist @GreenFire
aspect of British history
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#UK #England #Scotland #Ireland #History
(2/5)
... "United" in the literal sense only since exactly the start of the 19th century.
It is good idea, though, to revisit this thought (I love the map below :) ), as there have been so many changes over the past milennia.
"Historian #NormanDavies has counted sixteen different states over the past 2,000 years.[1]"
So, not only #Wales, but also #Scotland...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_of_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland#/media/File:Articles_of_Union.jpg
aspect of British history
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#UK #England #Scotland #Ireland #History
(3/5)
...has been in this game since the coronation of the first and last #Stuart Queen, Anne, in 1702. ;)
The #BritishEmpire came (arguably) into existence with #QueenElizabethI's permission for #WalterRaleigh to set up a colony in N-America (#RoanokeIsland) 1) and was cemeted by the the 1713 #TreatyOfUtrecht which ended the #WarOfTheSpanishSecession, significantly enlarging #GB.2)
...
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#UK #England #Scotland #Ireland #History
(4/5)
1) https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/topics/z7kvf82/articles/zpjv3j6#z6x6trd
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Utrecht and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire
______
Sidenote and Fun Fact:
It is interesting to see that in the 18th century, counting in English was still done in the "Germanic" way:
"ARTICLES
OF
UNION,
Agreed on the Two and twentieth Day of July in the Fifth Year of the Reign of Her..."
What was the British Empire? - BBC Bitesize
BBC BitesizeHistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@claralistensprechen3rd @Lassielmr @TheEconomist
#UK #England #Scotland #Ireland #History
(5/5)
......Nowadays, that should be July twenty-second ("twenty-two").
In present-day German, by contrast, it still is the "zweiundzwanzigste" (the TwoAndTwentieth).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_of_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland#/media/File:Articles_of_Union.jpg
//
aspect of British history
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •"For example in this situation, if we abandon Israel that could result in making that region into a new Iranian radical Islamist caliphate with strong ties to Moscow."
I agree. I don't think that going along with #Netanyahu's extremist policies in Gaza is necessary to prevent this, though.
#Israel is part of the West. As is #Hungary. Rogue leaders must be removed without "dumping" their countries.
@claralistensprechen3rd
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in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • •HistoPol (#HP) likes this.
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Clara Listensprechen • • •@claralistensprechen3rd
#WarInPalestine #History
(1/n)
I agree with you, Clara, regarding the predilections of #Erdogan. (Interesting, BTW, that you should use the official #Türkiye;))
#Iran could not conquer #Israel.
However, as we can see by its huge production of drones for the #Kremlin, it can cause havoc regarding the region's #infrastructure.
Also, I have read a bit about the technologies it employs (actually...
@GreenFire
https://mastodon.scot/@Lassielmr
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HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •#WarInPalestine #History
(2/n)
...that question should be directed to a@TheEconomist@press.coop's Defence Editor, #ShashankJoshi, @shashj). 1)
My gut feeling is that, despite it being propaganda, Prof. #MuhammadMirandi's (see post above) assessment of the weaponry employed in the recent mass attack of #Iran contains more than a grain of truth.
In any event, not only #Turkey could have a claim to #Palestine...
1) *https://www.rusi.org/people/joshi
Shashank Joshi
www.rusi.orgHistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@claralistensprechen3rd
#WarInPalestine #History
(3/n)
...I took a trip in a virtual time machine in a discussion here. It leads to nowhere.
Historically speaking, #Palestine belongs to no-one and everyone b/c "everyone" has been their at some point in time:
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/111969398501009885
(Note:
Do look at the linked timeline, the number of empires involved over the course of several thousand years is truly staggering).
//
@claralistensprechen3rd
#WarInPalestine #History
(3/n)
...I took a trip in a virtual time machine in a discussion here. It leads to nowhere.
Historically speaking, #Palestine belongs to no-one and everyone b/c "everyone" has been their at some point in time:
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/111969398501009885
(Note:
Do look at the linked timeline, the number of empires involved over the course of several thousand years is truly staggering).
//
HistoPol (#HP)
2024-02-21 12:10:33
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Clara Listensprechen
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • •Hokay, time for video fact checking because it doesn't take much for Piers to embarrass himself with any given topic; quite frankly, I'm surprised that he still has a job at all.
First item: "Iran's attack on Israel was a failure". Circumstance: Israel attacked an Iranian facility in Syria and "Iran's attack on Israel" was a response to that, intending to proverbally send a message. This is the answer to Morgan's next question, "What did Iran have to gain?" after which Morgan does a Texas TwoStep with "first things first". Sorry but no.
(My gawd, all the spelling errors!!}
Guests announced: Mustafa Baguti (sic) Flei Hassan and Francesca Firantini
First, Muhammad Morandi
Third item: Muhammad Morandi says that Israel is carrying out a genocide, motivated by an ethnosupremacist ideology stemming from apartheid. People who lived on that land were expelled and forced to live in a concentration camp.
Mostly true. The indigenous people were pushed out with impunity by Europeans, initially, but what he says about all Jews applies only to the Orthodo
... show moreHokay, time for video fact checking because it doesn't take much for Piers to embarrass himself with any given topic; quite frankly, I'm surprised that he still has a job at all.
First item: "Iran's attack on Israel was a failure". Circumstance: Israel attacked an Iranian facility in Syria and "Iran's attack on Israel" was a response to that, intending to proverbally send a message. This is the answer to Morgan's next question, "What did Iran have to gain?" after which Morgan does a Texas TwoStep with "first things first". Sorry but no.
(My gawd, all the spelling errors!!}
Guests announced: Mustafa Baguti (sic) Flei Hassan and Francesca Firantini
First, Muhammad Morandi
Third item: Muhammad Morandi says that Israel is carrying out a genocide, motivated by an ethnosupremacist ideology stemming from apartheid. People who lived on that land were expelled and forced to live in a concentration camp.
Mostly true. The indigenous people were pushed out with impunity by Europeans, initially, but what he says about all Jews applies only to the Orthodox and the UltraOrthodox, not all Jews. Current events are the result of the UltraOrthodox regime under Netanyahu, which is exactly what the rest of Israel is protesting. It should be added that the Orthodox and UltraOrthodox are also religiously misogynist, so it's not just ethnosupremacy they believe in but also male supremacy, and they do believe in segregating not just the sexes but the Jew from the Goyim and the ordained from the average people to the point where they're too good to serve in the military.
And with that I urge one and all to listen to the rest of the video.
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King Beauregard
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •I really wish the administrators would say:
"You are adults, and I am pleased to tell you that certain privileges come with adulthood. You have the privilege to decide what happens next. You are doubtless aware of the code of conduct at this school, and that the protests have been in violation of the code of conduct, particularly in how they have threatened some of your classmates.
"So this is where you may choose. You can bring your protests in line with the code of conduct, and continue your education here. Or you may continue to violate the code of conduct, and be expelled with failing grades and no refunds.
"We await your decision and will honor it."
Kevin Leecaster
in reply to King Beauregard • • •@kingbeauregard
Administrators only pull in big salaries based on how much money that they can drain from the students and professors. They don't get paid to make the hard decisions which is why they're allowing mob rule to continue on campuses for so long.
To be fair though, these protests seem to be the most coordinated attack on our democratic society we've ever seen so they seem particularly difficult to ahead of.
Kevin Leecaster
in reply to Kevin Leecaster • • •Glad to see that Oregon seems like they'll be able to use an anti-KKK law to charge protesters hiding their faces. That will hopefully help to get the mobs to start acting more civilized.